Friday, May 10, 2013

More on the 3-D Gun Recklessness

Screengrab of Cody Wilson holding a gun made by 3D printer in Austin, Texas
Cody Wilson holding a 3D-printed gun in Austin, Texas. Experts say it would be dangerous to hold while firing. Photograph: BBC

The Guardian

Firing a gun in which any part has been made in a 3D printer could result in the death of the user, a specialist has warned, because the plastics in the gun would not stand ballistic pressures and stresses – and so might disintegrate.

Jonathan Rowley, design director of London-based 3D printing specialist Digits2Widgets, issued the warning on the company blog after being approached by two UK newspapers – the Mail On Sunday and the Daily Telegraph – that wanted him to "print" a gun using the files generated by Cody Wilson in the US earlier this week on his company's commercial printer.

Rowley fears that the nylon used to create the designs would be unable to withstand the explosive force of the bullet ejection and that the "gun" could explode, shooting plastic shards that could harm users and bystanders.

Philip Boyce, an independent firearms expert at Forensic Scientific in Thetford, said: "It all depends on how hard the plastic is. You might get one of these to fire 10 to 20 shots before it gives up the ghost. It would just disrupt - the barrel would fall apart, the chamber would fall apart." The accuracy of 3D printed guns is also under question because the barrel would wobble as the bullet passes through it.

Boyce says the existence of files to create such weapons is something people "definitely should worry" about: "normally criminals can only get converted blank-firing pistols. But if they have plastic weapons they can get a few shots off, which is all they want."

He says: "We fear that the next story will be about a child blowing their hand off while experimenting with a 3D printed gun … This type of accident is the immediate danger of the project and will happen long before anyone is deliberately killed by one of these tools."

Wilson, 22, has managed to produce a gun using a commercial 3D printer which successfully fired a shot – but in testament to his own nervousness about safety, he used a piece of string 20ft long attached to the trigger. He has now released the files for making the gun onto the internet so that anyone could "print" their own using a printer.

That led to approaches from the newspapers, which Rowley has turned down flat. "Nobody has done any testing on these materials in regard to high pressure and explosives," he told the Guardian. "All that Wilson has proved is that with one particular machine and one particular material he's produced something that doesn't blow his hand off. He's giving the impression that these files can be used by anybody." That, he says, is enormously risky. "None of our industrial 3D printers run the same type of plastic as used by Cody Wilson." Though the parts might look superficially similar, "the way they would perform under firing would be totally unknown".

3D printing uses materials which can be heated using computer-controlled design systems to form extremely thin solid slices, which are then built up layer by layer to form solid objects. Its principal advantages are that it can be used building prototypes, generating one-off designs and even making shapes that cannot be made by standard injection-moulding systems.

Wilson spent almost a year developing the "Liberator", a "wiki weapon" that can be put together from parts which can be printed in a commercial printer. He hopes that his files will lead to "a complete explosion of all available gun laws … I think we should have the right to own all the terrible implements of war".

Rowley says Wilson has "abstract libertarian philosophy that proposes that anyone has the right to own anything" and that he "doesn't appear to care" about the potential widespread use of 3D printed guns by individuals.

But Rowley argues that making the files available is far more dangerous to those who download and try to use them than to those who might have such guns aimed at them. "If you look at these files, there are all sorts of attached text documents about how to put them together, but nothing about the materials you must use for it to work or the printer you need to employ. It's highly irresponsible, but there are plenty of fools who will jump at the chance to have a go."

He said he could not ethically agree to produce the guns for the newspapers: "Anyone would be putting their life in their hands if they used these."

And this is what the pro-gun folks are all excited about?  Typical of them - they couldn't care less about the dangers involved, so besotted are they with the prospect of guns for everyone. And the ones talking the loudest won't be the first to blow their fingers off.  That'll be done, and soon too, by the more gullible followers of guys like Robert Farago and Kurt the Superman.

What's your opinion?  Please leave a comment.

52 comments:

  1. Mike,

    We fully understand these dangers. There was lots of skepticism, at first, all over gun blogs and forums regarding whether the technology, as it stands today, would allow for the creation of a chamber and barrel that would withstand the pressure of anything more than a .22. The Liberator seems to have a thick enough barrel that it does this.

    The point that most of us see as interesting in this "wiki weapon" project is that it has gotten enough press to illustrate the ease of making firearms. Here, it's 3d printing. Another example is what can be done with a handful of items from home depot and the cylinder out of a revolver designed in the 1800's:

    http://imgur.com/a/eR3Tc

    Other designs have been come up with over the centuries. In the bush in the Philippines, people used to make crude shotguns using a pipe that a 12 gage shell would fit in, but not the rim of the shell, a larger pipe that you could then put the smaller pipe into, and a nail exposed in the back of the large pipe to hit the primer when the barrel was pulled to the rear.

    The point of all of these exercises is that no matter how much gun control you have, people can always come up with a way to make a gun. Maybe most people won't, but the criminals we worry about will. It doesn't have to be elegant, it just has to fire--or even make a victim think it can fire.

    When it comes to gun control, proponents are trying to keep criminals from getting their hands on technology that goes back hundreds of years--heck, even semi-autos are over 100 years old.

    The cat's out of the bag already. Men have fire.

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    1. YEEHAW--The US is gonna be Pakistan in a few more years!

      I hope you're happy when it happens.

      I can fuck off to a civilised country.

      While you morons are stuck in the shit heap you created.

      Delete
    2. Please, feel free to fuck off any time you like.





      (Gotta admit, you leaned into that one.)

      Delete
    3. Or not, dont forget, over the past two decades or so, the rate of gun crimes has been going down. Maybe it will keep going in the current direction.
      However, one of the things that makes this country great is you can vote with your feet if wherever you want to go will take you. And the US seems to take almost everyone. Letting Piers Morgan in is proof of that.

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    4. Confederate, I agree with you, we don't need gun control.

      We need thought control.

      Mike, You need to do something on this

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE

      I assure you, this takes everything to an entirely new level.

      Not a machinegun under federal or any state law that I know of.


      Here are more videos

      Some from "Hickok 45" (a formidable crazy in himself)

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLt8-Wf7r0&feature=relmfu

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29evY77S13M

      And this one...........................

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ks5idq69MN4&feature=related

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    5. Yeah, I saw that bumping stock. Sometimes I think you guys just love to break the law, or find ways to get around it. I think it has to do with my theory that you're mainly a bunch of stunted adolescents, insecure and frightened, who feel so empowered with guns that you lose all common sense.

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    6. Sometimes I think you guys just love to break the law, or find ways to get around it.

      You say that in a way that seems to imply that the two things are on some level equivalent. They are not. One who "find[s] ways to get around" a law is one who has found a way to comply with that law, while presumably still managing to enjoy at least some of the freedom that the law would otherwise have trampled.

      My bump fire stock (not a Slidefire stock--I like the Bumpski better, but it's the same general concept) is on its way. I'll mount it to my Vepr-12 shotgun, which already has a Gator spreader choke.

      I'd probably be able to take out an entire "Stop the NRA" rally with one burst.

      Haha! Just kidding, of course. Not my usual approach to comedy, but I know how much Mikeb appreciates "humor" on that level.

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    7. Kurt,

      I'd recently heard about the Gator choke but didn't know it was available. Interesting and could be fun to experiment with.


      Mike,

      If you had a visceral reaction to Kurt's joke about the rally (like I did when I first read it) please understand that That is the reaction we have whenever you make jokes about the death of gun owners or Laci "jokes" about nukes.

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    8. Yet another copy-and-paste job from you know who....

      Mikeb, you call us stunted adolescents. What do you call someone who is desperate to control the actions of others?

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    9. With the happy confluence in this discussion about 3-D printing of gun related stuff, and about bump fire stocks, that's something I'd like to see civil rights icon Cody Wilson pursue--"printing" bump fire stocks.

      There may be some technical hurdles--I know the Slide Fire is plastic, but I don't know if the mechanical stresses on the part necessitate using a grade of plastic not useable by consumer-level 3-D printers. Still, I bet it could be done, and if it makes Sen. Feinstein cry, the universe will be a better place.

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    10. I recognized Kurt's remark to be a joke. I'm not the one around here who pretends people are serious in order to take them to task for every little thing. That's what you guys do.

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    11. Kurt,

      I'd recently heard about the Gator choke but didn't know it was available. Interesting and could be fun to experiment with.


      Haven't had a chance to try it out yet, but I'll let you know about my experiences with it, once I've had some.

      Paradigm SRP (the makers of the Gator) recommend #4 buckshot, and I'm a big believer in #1 buck, so I'll have to see if the larger pellet size degrades the pattern to an unacceptable degree.

      I hope not--I'd really prefer not to give up the penetration of #1 buck.

      Delete
    12. Mikeb, if you didn't make so many absurd statements, we'd have an easier time knowing when you're just kidding.

      Delete
    13. Hey Tennessean, thought you might be interested in an update on my Vepr-12 shotgun with Bumpski stock, Gator spreader choke, and Crimson Trace VFG with tac-light and green laser. Haven't gotten a chance to shoot it yet, but I'm happy with the way it's coming along:

      Right side

      Left side

      Might put some kind of red dot or holographic optic on it, although that probably doesn't make a lot of sense, given that the spreader choke yields a lateral dispersion of a about 567.7 MOA ;-).

      Now all I need is for Alliance Armament to offer Vepr versions of their 20 and 30-round drums.

      Delete
    14. The "bump-fire" stocks are fun, but I gotta say I'm quite intrigued with the impending arrival of bump-fire triggers. I'm seriously considering dropping one into my .50 Beowulf AR "pistol," along with one of these Sig wrist braces, that the ATF says are not stocks, and can thus be legally installed on pistols. Put on the MGW drum (designed to hold 90 rounds of 5.56mm NATO/.223 Remington, but can also do 30 or more rounds of .50 Beowulf, and I should be able to send well over a pound and a half of lead downrange in less than four seconds, and approach about 50 horsepower at the muzzle.

      Should be a lot of fun.

      Delete
    15. Say . . . did you see this--once again, the gun culture outsmarts the morally and intellectually bankrupt forcible citizen disarmament jihadists.

      That's inspiring.

      Delete
  2. That'll be done, and soon too, by the more gullible followers of guys like Robert Farago and Kurt . . .

    My "followers"? I have "followers"?

    What a strange, strange world you live in, Mikeb. I simply cannot imagine.

    ReplyDelete
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    1. Oh, really. You don't think of your blog readers and your Examiner readers as followers? What a strange world YOU live in Kurt.

      Have it your way. I do believe if I said the sky is blue you'd deny it and demand proof.

      Delete
    2. Of course they're not my "followers," Mikeb. A few readers may do me the honor of finding my writing to be worthy of their regular attention, but I strongly suspect that anyone who would regularly read my stuff is of the sort not to be looking for someone to follow.

      The hive insect mentality works much more comfortably among the forcible citizen disarmament fanatics than it would among the independent-minded liberty advocates.

      Delete
    3. Mikeb, if you mean in the loose sense that social media means regarding "followers," then we all have our share. If you mean disciples who will do what we say, that's another matter.

      With regard to you and claims about a blue sky, you're cash only, keep your hands where I can see them.

      Delete
    4. I believe extremists like Kurt, guys who talk in the most exaggerated terms possible about things, have both kinds of followers. The damage he's doing in the world is incalculable.

      Delete
    5. The damage he's doing in the world is incalculable."

      Hmm . . . "incalculable." Sounds like a convenient way of saying you can't come up with a plausible calculation of any "damage [I'm] doing in the world."

      Delete
  3. So some guy who hasn't tested the design has concerns. Um hm... Mikeb, you do realize that you'd believe anyone who labelled this thing as dangerous, regardless of the person's qualifications, knowledge, or biases.

    Is it potentially dangerous? Yes. Was the original Liberator a clunky and possibly dangerous design? Yes. But this plastic gun is a proof of concept. The Wright Brothers' Flyer wasn't particularly safe, either.

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    Replies
    1. Actually, even the designers understand that it's a new and potentially unsafe product. It worked with a .380 pistol round, but exploded when they tried a rifle round
      I'm thinking the picked the name for a reason.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP-45_Liberator

      Delete
    2. The .380 ACP operates at about the same pressure as some .45 ACP rounds. Most rifle cartridges are at a whole other level of power. But advances in this technology are likely to come soon.

      Delete
    3. It's not only that the proto-type is dangerous and crude, it's that the idea of people producing these things in their homes with no quality control of any kind is dangerous. The libertarian nonsense of no government involvement is what's dangerous.

      Delete
    4. Mike,

      As I pointed out above, this is just the latest way someone has come up with to make a home made firearm. The other ways are better established, safer, and perfectly available to criminals. You find some pretty weird and interesting (in an academic sense) improvised firearms coming from countries with the most strict gun control.

      As I said above, the main thing that I and many others see in this project is that it has drawn attention and shows how easy it is to make a firearm. In this case, it's with a new technology, but that opens discussion to segway into all the other myriad ways people have come up with.

      Delete
    5. I suppose you fear for my safety in the fact that I'm reloading ammunition. The fact that you fear the actions of good citizens on their own is why you will lose.

      Delete
    6. I know that, T. This is a modern plastic version of a zip gun. With no quality control except whatever the producer wants, they're much too dangerous.

      Another problem is it looks like a kid's toy. It shouldn't be too long before we start to see the baneful effects.

      Delete
    7. With no quality control except whatever the producer wants, they're much too dangerous.

      I can't think of anything homemade, and not offered for sale, that is subject to government-mandated quality control.

      Another problem is it looks like a kid's toy.

      Say--that would be a nearly foolproof way to get Bloomberg squawking hilariously about it--paint the muzzle orange ;-).

      Delete
    8. Hey, Mikeb--great news! I know you're worried about the safety of "printed," plastic guns--well there will probably soon be a very intriguing alternative. Meet the consumer-grade, desk-top CNC milling machine:

      Today, the CNC (Computer Numerical Control) milling process is responsible for chiseling out most gun parts for most guns—frame, barrel, firing pin, internal components, all cut down from a hunk of metal by the spinning bit of a CNC machine. Now what if that was something you could set up next to your home computer? Well, a San Francisco based R&D firm may have just answered your prayers and not even really know it.

      Otherfab, a San Francisco based R&D firm under the eponymous Otherlab, launched a Kickstarter campaign May 5 to fund the production of “a portable, computer controlled, 3-axis mill that is specifically designed for use at home.” Their design . . . claims to be portable (like take on the bus portable), clean and quiet (like do in your home office on your desk clean and quiet) yet also sophisticated enough to do high level electrical and mechanical prototyping work (like cutting out any shape your brain can think of, out of almost any material).


      Isn't that awesome? Taking the government completely out of the gun acquisition loop. And then, have a nice big taste of the delicious irony of this massive expansion of liberty coming out of San Francisco, of all places!

      Can you dig that?!

      Let freedom ring.

      Delete
  4. Oh, by the way, if you think the State Department's latest atrocity is going to stop 3-D printing of firearms, think again--Pirate Bay is on the case, and has already announced that they have no intention of taking the files down.

    The U.S. government has been trying to shut Pirate Bay down for years, providing much entertainment the world over.

    Iran and China may have inspired the Obama regime to enforce its will on the people via internet censorship, but it ain't going to work.

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  5. Modern day ZIP gun, big deal. All guns are dangerous, homemade or mass produced. Any name or type have seen catastrophic failures. It happens, and will continue to happen.

    So now we see a computer generated ZIP gun, looks like a progression of tech. Happens with anything, why not a gun?

    And I read that this plan and others have been downloaded over 100,000 times? The DOD hasn't shut down anything. This will continue from so many sources that stopping it will be like stopping the world from turning, good luck.

    Even if the original designer were to never be able to be somehow prevented to share his tech again, the cat is out of the bag. Thousands will pick it up, improve it, share it, make it, make more versions, improve those and so on.

    Regulating this will be like regulating sun shine and moon light.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For now, and probably for the foreseeable future, the (nearly) fully "printable" pistol isn't the big deal, except as a proof of concept, and for the sheer joy it brings decent Americans to watch wannabe petty tyrants Rep. Steve Israel, Sen. Chuck Schumer, and NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly go into hysterics about it (has anyone seen a Bloomberg reaction yet? That would be awesome).

      The much bigger deal in the here and now is the successful development of fully functional "high capacity" magazines, and the AR-15 lower receiver that was still in good shape after over 600 rounds.

      Better yet, it's my understanding (and I'd be grateful for correction if I am wrong) that neither the magazine designs or the AR-15 lower are among the files the State Department wants taken down (although that effort is so laughably doomed to failure that it hardly matters).

      Delete
  6. I'm gonna download that plan, modify it to blow up in the hand of the shooter, and dump the modified plan back into the source. We who oppose guns can flood the printing dump with defective plans, and no one will be able to tell the difference.

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    1. You, my friend, are a jackass with no respect for human life.

      So is that what you do when you are not heckling funerals or burning crosses?

      Despicable.

      Delete
    2. Because the one kind of violence and misfortune that gun controllers can agree is ok is that violence and misfortune that befall gun owners.

      Delete
    3. I'm not a gunsuck. I am just someone who is going to bring the end that the gunsucks want to them. I'm a humanitarian, really.

      Delete
    4. Whoever you are, Anonymous, if this is all talk, as I suspect, I hope misfortune clings to you like stink on shit. If you ACTUALLY do this, I hope you run into a pack of pitbulls.

      Delete
    5. You, again, Anonymous? Thanks for reminding us of the general quality of people on your side.

      Delete
    6. Ahh so the "I pray for your deaths" commenter "nickxdanger" has returned to spout more of its asinine drivel in an attempt to encourage violent crime (Felony murder), in an attempt to purge society of imagined evils.


      In the (unfortunate) event that you do not have a one-time encounter with a pack of pitbulls/honey badgers/wolverines, and meet your end by a joyous spectacle of public dismemberment, grave crimes (such as the capital murder which you described in your irreverent post) still procure the full penalty of English law.

      For example in Tennessean's home State,

      Fred Leutcher, the man hired to design the electric chair:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcfuvWGiVdQ

      He built this:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw81PgoEowI

      which does this..........................

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4B7JfYECNc

      A documentary on such by a former conservative MP

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqedjjmQ7xo

      Delete
  7. No response to your Bravely Anonymous pal with homicidal ambitions, Mikeb?

    Do you, perhaps, think he's "joking," and doing so in a way that's not disgusting?

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    Replies
    1. Nah, no response really. I imagine he's exaggerating to make a point, you know, sorta the way you do.

      Delete
    2. (mike, I love how your "preview" dumped my message AND my copy in RAM of it when I attempted wordpress: luckily I always save to notepad)

      heh, Hofmann has never threatened felonious/terroristic acts, more moral relativism eh, mikey?... try that with The Police, you'll have a detective calling your cell or knocking at your door...no one is anonymous on the Interwebz when it comes to cops, but all's silent when it's 2A supporters targeted.
      I somewhat agree w/ mike b, this isn't the fuse of an RPG or 120mm mortar round in the hands of a kindergarten education jihadi, you really can't make a mod that would pass the scrutiny of even the most basic mechanically skilled fabricator: we're talking about a metal cup, that the ammo industry has used such basic skills as deep drawing and cupping on 120 year old machines to mass produce until today, nothing more than lubricated plungers I can replicate on my 20 ton air over press, any press, even a hammer and die set: where there's a will there's a way. I'm going to print some bullets with the new 80% bronze/20% PLA binder filament that's out. Then I'll do some AR15 receiver parts, especially the hammer, that will be interesting but obviously unnecessary as plastic works just fine..

      Delete
    3. I hear you, JD. I don't really believe that Mr. Bravely Anonymous was doing anything more than indulging his sick, blustering fantasy of contributing to death or great bodily harm to home gun manufacturers.

      I have come to expect nothing from "gun control" advocates but the kind of sick hatred that breeds such vile fantasies, but combined with incompetence on a level too great to pull those fantasies off, and cowardice too great to even give it a try.

      Delete
    4. JD, maybe it'll come as a surprise to you but "my preview" is not really mine. If Blogger doesn't work well with your browser, I hate to break it to you, but there's no conspiracy involved.

      "Hofmann has never threatened felonious/terroristic acts?" Really?

      Delete
    5. Really?

      Well, I certainly can't recall ever having done so.

      Delete
  8. Remember when the people of "Great" Britain were known for their courage and resolve?

    Neither do I, but I have read about such a time. Apparently, though, these shrieking eunuchs have no intention of resurrecting their respectable past.

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  9. Wonderful news! Now the Liberator has been successfully produced on a far cheaper printer, using a cheaper (yet more durable) grade of plastic, and has survived nine shots, and might handle more.

    Meanwhile, people are already expanding and improving on the design.

    Fabulous news for gun rights, and thus for America, and thus for humanity!

    ReplyDelete
  10. Oohh--I want this:

    When Cody Wilson revealed the world’s first fully 3-D printed gun last year, he showed that the “maker” movement has enabled anyone to create a working, lethal firearm with a click in the privacy of his or her garage. Now he’s moved on to a new form of digital DIY gunsmithing. And this time the results aren’t made of plastic.

    Wilson’s latest radically libertarian project is a PC-connected milling machine he calls the Ghost Gunner. Like any computer-numerically-controlled (or CNC) mill, the one-foot-cubed black box uses a drill bit mounted on a head that moves in three dimensions to automatically carve digitally-modeled shapes into polymer, wood or aluminum. But this CNC mill, sold by Wilson’s organization known as Defense Distributed for $1,200, is designed to create one object in particular: the component of an AR-15 rifle known as its lower receiver.


    I love the fact that he calls it the "Ghost Gunner," as a direct slap in California state Sen. Kevin de León's idiotic face.

    Cody Wilson is a civil rights hero.

    $1200 is very doable, and if I put out an ad: "Make your own AR-15 with no background check, no paperwork," and charge maybe $20 per gun, it could pay for itself before long.

    The future is here, and the future is bright. Totally anonymous, uncontrollable ownership of so-called "assault weapons." It's coming, Mikeb--you ready? You know I am!

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